I'm having a hard time writing this post because my thoughts and emotions are all jumbled up and I feel scattered at the moment. I just got off the phone with Dr. Schoolcraft and he gave us a lot to think about. Although I had a bunch of questions written down to ask him, I still felt unprepared and of course, had a new question for him as soon as I got off the phone. That never seems to change! The high I carried with me through the weekend has now evapourated into the cold, stark reality of what we're facing.
The first thing we discussed was what the results indicated and if it could explain our past failures. My take on it was "isn't it great that I produce normal embryos?" and his take on it was more along the lines of "this confirms our poor egg quality theory". That's Dr. Sch - he always tells it like it is. I'm still digesting that tidbit of information...I've always been in denial that our IF was my issue, wanting to believe that it was more unexplained, but now it seems that CCRM is confirming what the doctors here have been telling me all along. That's a very bitter $30k pill for me to swallow.
How is this indicative of poor egg quality? Well, we've never had anything go to blast before and on day 3 of our CCRM cycle, it appeared that I was having (in his words) a perfect cycle, meaning that we had 6 embryos that were all 8 cells. The high attrition rate from day 3 to day 5 when we dropped from 6 embryos down to just two viable ones confirms for Dr. Sch that the poor egg quality is reflected by the poor embryo quality and the high number that arrested. In the past, we always did day 3 transfers so we never knew that we had such a high attrition rate between day 3 and day 5. I should have asked him about the 4CB poor quality blast that was normal - how come it was normal yet such poor quality? I suspect he would have said that quality and viability are not always directly correlated with the right number of chromosomes and make reference to my poor egg quality again. Again, should have asked him, but didn't think of the question until I hung up.
Interestingly enough, he was also in a bit of disbelief at my estimate of the success rates (65% for 1 normal transferred; 85% for 2 normals transferred). He was asking me where I had heard those numbers and I told him that it was from the genetic counselling session and based solely on my age. He was quick to correct my estimate and decreased it to a 40% chance if we transferred one normal embryo, taking into account my past history. He thought though that we could get as high as a 70% chance if we transferred two normals.
Dr. Sch also confirmed for me that the 4CB embryo is not normally one that they would have biopsied and he doesn't have a lot of past experience with the thawing of such poorly graded embryos. He doesn't know if it will make it through the thaw (the embryologist seemed to think that there was a good chance that it would not) but if it did, he would be okay transferring that one as well. However, he said again that this was a poor quality blast and that, in his opinion, we only have the one real contender here. Ouch.
As an aside, I asked him if the grading of the embryo could change from the time it was thawed to the time of transfer and he said that the freezing and thawing of embryos does not change embryo grading. What they were graded before the freeze is the grade that they are at thaw. They will tell us however, what percentage of the cells made it through the thaw but that's it. I was also wondering if we would be able to get a better idea of the grade of the inner cell mass and the trophectoderm cells of the normal 2/3 embryo after thawing and he said that the time between thawing and transfer is about an hour so there is not enough time for the blast to develop any further in culture.
So, it is decision time and I do not know what we're going to do. Part of me thinks that we should go down and hope for the best, that both will survive the thaw so we have two to transfer. The other part of me wants to cycle again in hopes of getting one or two more to transfer and therefore increase our chances as high as possible. I've even had the thought cross my mind to cycle again up here since it is cheaper and ask my doctor to follow CCRM's protocol but then I think about CCRM's top notch lab, which becomes even more important given the fragile nature of my eggs. Another option would be to try and treat this through TCM only because, after all, this is the only school of thought that believes that there is no such thing as poor egg quality.
In the end, lots to think about. Which way will we go? Don't know yet.
For Good
13 years ago
16 comments:
That does sound a lot worse than I would have thought.
I'm so glad you had the "low grade" blast biopsied and that it was normal - CCRM is getting a really good rate of successful thawing from vitrification so I'm surprised he's thinking it won't make it.
Man, I don't know what I would do if I were you. Heck I'm the girl that went fresh b/c I couldn't wait any longer (and b/c I was overly worried) ...
Anyhow, I think it might be wise to do another ER only b/c you'd get more eggs/embryos while you're younger, and if you get too many normals (is there such a thing?) then you'd have some for siblings ...
But I'd be tempted to FET now baby!!!!
I found your blog through another girl and just wanted to tell you that I'm praying for you guys and hoping for the best outcome.
I don't blame you for being unsure of what to do. They sure don't make these things easy on us do they.
Hmmm, I thought that at day 2/3 the sperm kicked in so arresting between day 3 and day 5 was not necessarily indicative of egg quality??? That said, Schooly is the expert. I am 39 and if I were you and had the cash (or credit card capability) I would go to another retrieval and in tandem consult with The Fertile Soul or similar TCM. I think it's very likely that you will get pregnant with this round but while your eggs are younger it makes sense to retrieve now as a back up and/or for sibs. Just my input, you've got to follow that still small voice as to what's right for you. Good luck to you xxx
Dr. Schoolcraft is a genius, but we all know he's a bit on the pessimisive side for the most part! I hope your 4CB thaws well so that you will have 2 normals to transfer!!!
Oh gosh, I'm so sorry he put a damper on things. Sounds like he was pretty negative and I can only imagine how that leaves you feeling, questioning everything and what in the world to do next. I'm hoping he was just trying to keep your expectations low and that it's really not as grim as he makes it out to be.
It kinda perturbs me that he blames everything on the eggs. Doesn't an embryo require sperm? I can't help but to think that the sperm have some responsibility in this. What if they inject a sperm with abnormal dna into a perfect egg? I've heard that the maternal dna is really in charge through day 3 and after that the sperm dna starts contributing. So my theory of an embryo that does great up until day 3 and then peters out is, either the sperm had bad dna or the egg ran out of energy to keep dividing.
While speaking to my nurse last week, she asked me what Sch thought was our issue and I said, you know Dr. Sch, he blames everything on egg quality. She gasped in shock.
I think if you are happy with one baby, do the FET now. But if you want a sibling for later, cycle again if you can afford it.
Sending you peaceful and clarity vibes. Hugs!
I agree with Jill. I've heard that the attrition from day 3 to 5 is likely a sperm issue...but then when I met with the genetic counselor they seemed to take sperm completely out of the equation and said outright that eggs contribute the messed up DNA and sperm almost always gets it right. Seems sexist to me. They explained it by saying that eggs degenerate b/c we are born with all we will ever have but sperm is made fresh each time...still don't completely believe them.
Sorry Dr. Sch was such a downer. I thought you had a great cycle. I mean, I think you probably have great eggs and they are just sensitive to external crap (at least that is how I explain mine). But, I've never met him- just seen him walk by when I was waiting for ER (and he made my ER doctor late for my ER!!!).
Whatever you choose to do, it is the right thing. I know how hard it is to wait another cycle and shell out more money for another banking cycle- I was just obsessing about that recently. It scared me to death, but I have to admit there is a part of me that still wants to bank embryos for safety and future siblings. But, we decided we can't afford it unless we absolutely had to. In any event, you did make it to blast and you do have at least one (probably two) normal embryos!!!
I would have done FET with one normal (of the best quality) since there are thoughts on the board that putting together better and worse quality embryos might reduce chances of success...and nobody knows what is true... if it does not work, then probably it's time move on to the next cycle.
The news are definitely not the best but please keep in mind that Sch. is very conservative, and he stills gives you pretty high chances of success, right?
When I talked to him last time, he yawned, and casually remarked that my eggs might look good but most likely are crap anyway, so in his humble opinion I should proceed to donor eggs or can entertain myself with one more cycle. So, Schoolcraft is Schoolcraft but I still love him to death :-)
Hang in there and Best of Luck!
So much to think about. I'm sorry he wasn't more optimistic. I wish that things were easier, but I am still rooting for your one good looking normal embie!
We'll all be here, cheering you on no matter what you decide!
Well hopefully I can cheer you up a little... when we first met Dr. S. he said how basically it was pretty pitiful that I had one good embryo (BFP) out of the 60 some eggs retrieved. Then the first cycle I had with him was I quote "kind-of poopy"... Of the two fresh cycles that I've done at CCRM it's another 38 eggs and again, one BFP. But you know, it doesn't matter if it's just finding that one. I think there's a good chance that you got it.
I didn't ask him my odds... but I'm sure mine would have been even lower than what he gave yours.
I don't think your local lab uses vitrification? That could be a big con. Also check and see if CCRM will allow you to mix untested CGH with tested CGH (despite getting no results sometimes and tx'd those)
Anyhow, I know how these things can psych you out - but I have Big Hopes for you!!!
Andrea
I am so sorry that Dr Sch wasn't more optimistic. I am sure you wre completely taken off guard. This is so much to think about and so much to go through. If you can, I would do another cycle and bank the embies. If he doesn't think the one embie will thaw, then it would be nice to have more than the one higher quality embie to tx.
Whatever decision you make will be the best one. There are no easy decisions in this h*ll on earth, so just trust your head and your heart.
I wanted to let you know that I am thinking of you. You have a lot of decisions to make..and I am sure which road you choose will be the right one. I am just getting caught up with blogs but please try to keep your head up. ((HUGS))
Dr. Sch can definitely leave you wanting more in the bedside manner arena. But, he is a straight shooter (albeit a bit pessimistic). I thought our issue was more unexplained as well, with both some PCOS on my part and sperm issues on DH's part. He pretty much laid all the issues on my eggs and told me that was our main issue. That's just how he believes.
I will tell you that with 2 genetically normals, I think you have a fantastic shot. I had 2/6 microarray normal blasts, transfered both normals and am pg with B/B twins. Genetically normal embryos do give you such a greater likelihood for success!
Just wanted to wish you good luck!
Sending lots of love and positive thoughts. I'm always here if you want to talk or need a phone hug. Love to you both, L
I have no advice for you, but I am sorry you were left feeling down & confused by your consult.
I wish you peace & wisdom & guidance as you decide what is the best decision.
Good luck!!!
Wow, that is a lot to take in, huh? It's so love/hate with Schoolcraft....love that he tells it like it is and hate that he tells it like it is.
I hope you are able to reach a decision that brings you both peace and a baby in your arms.
Lots of hugs.
Thank you very much for your comment on my new blog (barrengoddess)! I'm GoBeau on IVFC - I'm not sure if you realized that...and I just figured out that you're budndud! (We have too many names I think.)
I know you have a difficult decision ahead of you. Even though Dr. Sch had a slightly different take on the whole situation, the good news is that you have TWO normals. Re: another cycle...I'm a big supporter of bundling. I wish I had started much sooner than I did. But then again, I'm older than you. Best of luck and I'll see you on IVFC...
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